Vapor Trails - IV. afterthoughts, questions, and comments
Vapor Trails - IV. afterthoughts, questions, and comments
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ZeroMischief New Arrival Posted: 7/19/02 6:46 pm Re: Vapor Trails Remastering Info (Please Read) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Somebody HELP!!! How do I get L2 Ultramixer to RUN after it's downloaded? After I click "Try it" to start my 14 day trial, the window disappears and then nothing happens. What's up? Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks, Zero -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Xanadar Nuitari Rush Fan Posted: 7/19/02 7:05 pm Re: Vapor Trails Remastering Info (Please Read) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ZeroMischief, The 'L2 Ultramaximizer' (like any other DirectX or VST plug-in) requires a host application to use it, such as Cool Edit Pro, Sound Forge, WaveLab, Cubase, etc. Plug-ins add functionality to those types of applications that support the use of them. That's why they're called "plug-ins". Different programs allow you to access them in different ways. In Cool Edit Pro, you access it by selecting 'Effects' > 'DirectX' > 'Waves' > 'L2...' Hope that helps. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- flyonthewheel New Arrival Posted: 7/19/02 10:36 pm Re: Vapor Trails Remastering Info (Please Read) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ??? Sorry, another question. Wish this thread didn't have to exist. *What are we gaining by adjusting the DC offset? Been very pleased with the results of the latest formula, except OLV, which I'm taking a much more aggressive approach with. I may actually EQ it alittle...in the end. Thanks (xan and mita), for coming up with the great plan, it was actually alot simpler then we would have thought. TY. -fly | anotherrushfansite | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Xanadar Nuitari Rush Fan Posted: 7/19/02 11:39 pm Re: Vapor Trails Remastering Info (Please Read) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FotW, The best way that I can explain it is to let Sound Forge's help file do it for me: "DC offset occurs when hardware, such as a sound card, adds DC current to a recorded audio signal. This current results in a recorded waveform that is not centered around the baseline (-infinity). Glitches and other unexpected results can occur when sound effects are applied to files that contain DC offsets." DC offset correction uses a value of absolute zero to center the waveform along the baseline. Sometimes it is not even necessary at all, but I've noticed that most of the time it is. It does nothing to alter the music... it just prevents unwanted artifacts from surfacing during processing. It's simply a precautionary measure to ensure that the waveform will be processed accurately. I usually try to make it a habit to apply DC offset correction after every step in processing, not just as the first step. It's usually not necessary, but I'm just anal that way. With OLV, I eventually zoomed in to the offending left-over clicks (believed to be introduced during recording/mixing) and applied a single pass with Waves 'X-Crackle' with rather aggressive settings. On a slightly related note, I've been doing my homework on our "good friend" Howie Weinberg (Masterdisk Mastering Engineer responsible for the final sound of "Vapor Trails"), and took a peek at his partial discography. He has a rather impressive list of achievements, and I decided to dig up some of the CDs that I own that he was responsible for. For the most part, I am extremely pleased with the sound of some of them... Def Leppard "Hysteria", Metallica "Master of Puppets", and White Zombie "La Sexorcisto". Sevendust "Sevendust" is borderline for me. However, whenever I purchased Joe Satriani "Engines of Creation" (one of my all-time favs from Satch), something just didn't sound right about that one. I just about wanted to beat Mr. Weinberg repeatedly with a large blunt instrument when I saw "EoC" on his list. I extracted the audio, loaded it up, and sure enough... all of the songs on that CD suffer the same problems that plague VT to varying degrees. Some of the tracks look like a solid freakin' square wave. /boggle /rant on What the hell is up with these damn "loudness wars" today? It's an ongoing trend apparently, and it makes me want to throw up. It's not necessary to slam every damn track on a CD to 0dB and induce digital distortion to achieve a "hot" sound digitally! Some of these so-called "experts" in the field of audio engineering think they are doing the artists a favor by destroying the music that their heart and soul went into, just to make it sound "louder" than the previous CD they "mastered". Digital audio needs to be treated with extreme care. It is almost infintely more unforgiving than analog, and most of the techniques used during processing are not interchangeable. Mastering is the last chance in post-production to get it right, not screw it up. When a mastering engineer does what was done to "Vapor Trails", then he has done the artists an incredible injustice, and he should be downright ashamed. Hell, I'd be embarrassed to say that I was responsible for that! Today's technology is astouding as far as what is available to engineers to work with digital audio. There are many strict standards in place for processing digital audio for motion pictures and television, but none for the music industry. This crap needs to change. Hopefully with the introduction of DVD-A, HDCD, and SACD, this will all change. Time will tell... Constructive criticism for Mr. Weinberg with the most respect that I can manage to muster at this point... Master your profession first before you butcher any more works of art, please! /rant off Also, I emailed Mr. Bob Katz (Chief Mastering Engineer with very impressive achievements, and co-owner of Digital Domain, a well-established CD mastering house in Orlando, FL) earlier explaining what I was trying to achieve, and asked what he suggested as the course of action to take for an amateur home recording hobbyist to rid any CD of digital "overs". This was his reply: Dear Michael: is this just for personal pleasure or for some kind of professional re-release? We have software to remove or reduce the effects of these overs, but it is very time-consuming and labor-intensive. The right way to do this is to remaster the material properly. I don't think there is any "ordinary" software that does justice to this. Perhaps something in WaveLab, but I don't know. Sounds like a labor-intensive non-profit-making hobby unless you do it right. In which case it will be a labor-intensive, profit-making professional heavy job. Some of the "clip restoration" material does a fair job, but I've found Sonic Solutions Type E to be the best for this, yet still it is labor-intensive. Best wishes, Bob Needless to say, it was nice to actually receive a reply from someone in his position, and made me feel very good that I've managed to get as far as I have with this from just learning as I go, and enlisting the invaluable help and suggestions of others in the process. Their website contains a tremendous wealth of information on everything dealing with CD mastering. Definitely worth checking out for anyone with the slightest interest in what takes place during the post-production process. =Digital Domain= Edited by: Xanadar Nuitari at: 7/20/02 3:21:16 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ZeroMischief New Arrival Posted: 7/20/02 10:25 am Re: Vapor Trails Remastering Info (Please Read) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Xan, I've got CEP and did the "1st remaster" per your initial instructions. I have tried going to Effects> DirectX> but all that is present is "Intervideo Audio Effects". I don't see "Waves" anywhere. Is there a special process when downloading or installing? All I did was download from the link you provided for the Masters Bundle, went through their installation process, and clicked "Try it" per their instructions. Then when I go into CEP I get the result I gave above. No "Waves>L2" is present. Now what??? Edited by: ZeroMischief at: 7/20/02 11:25:57 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Xanadar Nuitari Rush Fan Posted: 7/20/02 10:48 am Re: Vapor Trails Remastering Info (Please Read) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Try selecting 'Effects' > 'Refresh Effects List' and see if that brings it up. There's nothing special that needs to be done to the install of the plug-ins. It doesn't matter where they're installed. Once a DirectX plug-in is registered to the Windows registry, any program that supports them will know where they are. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ZeroMischief New Arrival Posted: 7/20/02 11:52 am Re: Vapor Trails Remastering Info (Please Read) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Xan, that did it! Once again you da' man! Thanks so much! I'm going to remaster later today using the order shown back on page 3 of this thread. I believe that to be the most recent. Thanks again, Zero -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subdivision New Arrival Posted: 7/20/02 6:51 pm Re: Vapor Trails Remastering Info (Please Read) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Xan, Thank you for all your work. I have been applying all the tweaks as you have updated your work. I used Cool Edit Pro on my laptop, I also have Sound Forge 5, and Pro Tools LE, although I haven't experimented with Pro Tools LE that much...I find its interface needlessly complex and I alway have. Anyway I really heard a difference when I played the album and listened through my headphones, which is my prefered way of listening to music. I just ordered a pair of AKG 240S for my use at work and at home since my damn Sonys just up and died on me for no reason. I am eager to hear the album through that new set this week. Thanks again for all your work Xan. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- flyonthewheel New Arrival Posted: 7/20/02 7:40 pm Re: Vapor Trails Remastering Info (Please Read) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Xan- After reading some tips from the Sytrillium forum board, I've figured something out I think you should try for the rough spots, esp. OLV. Have you tweeked the overhead setting in clip restorer after you've done the 'whole formula' (but before going back to 16-bit)? When I adjust the overhead setting it really does those 'slanted' clips wonders. I lose alot less fidelity than an aggressive X-crackle. Try 18% for the first drum break (and then L2), about 21.4 sec. to 23.6 sec. I was very pleased! I go through each trouble spot with similar settings, and even whole sections (like verse 1 & 2 at about 12%). I know we all want to be done with this, but I think it's worth the effort. -fly | anotherrushfansite | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Xanadar Nuitari Rush Fan Posted: 7/20/02 8:01 pm Re: Vapor Trails Remastering Info (Please Read) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No problem, Subdivison. Wow, those are sweet headphones you've got coming in. If you don't mind, how much did they set you back? I've been wanting a really nice set of monitor phones for a while... gives me a reason to finally get the Live!Drive for my SB Live!. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Xanadar Nuitari Rush Fan Posted: 7/20/02 8:34 pm Re: Vapor Trails Remastering Info (Please Read) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FotW, You noticed the slanted clips too??? I thought those were so incredibly odd whenever I finally zoomed into them. I thought "Now how in the world did those happen?" I mean, whatever was done to create those end results sure didn't remove the negative effects of the clipping... it just created a fancy stair-stepped distortion that's proven to be a pain to get rid of. Definitely creative... *eyeroll* It makes no sense, and I bet that's why they aren't getting detected by using more relaxed settings. Excellent findings! I'll try those settings out as soon as I can. By the way, I don't care what it takes or how long it takes. Anything else discovered that helps to get rid of the static and crackling without sacrificing fidelity or the tonal quality of the album is more than worth its weight in gold. One thing's for sure though... I think this is officially becoming a group effort now. There's quite a growing list of individuals being added to the list of credits for this project. I've decided to give "VT" a break for a couple of days and work on Joe Satriani's "Engines of Creation". It suffers the very same problem (same mastering engineer), just not to the degree of "VT". I'll let you know how it turns out. Thanks! Edited by: Xanadar Nuitari at: 7/21/02 2:33:58 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- flyonthewheel New Arrival Posted: 7/20/02 9:11 pm Re: Vapor Trails Remastering Info (Please Read) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Try not to wait too long (to solve the problems of the earth), my waves trial ends in four days. sorry to think of myself first, *laughing*. Whenever. Thanks. -fly | anotherrushfansite | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dejm1 Rush Fan Posted: 7/21/02 1:35 am Re: Vapor Trails Remastering Info (Please Read) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You list some of Howie Weinberg's credits. Pretty impressive list and there are plenty more - and then you rant to master his art before he ruins any more works of art. His past credentials might not be works of art, but the guy is a pro, no doubt about that. And Geddy has worked with him before. I'm not saying the sound isn't questionable on the CD, but the guy knows what he is doing, and I'd say he probably "mastered" his art by now, VT notwithstanding. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subdivision New Arrival Posted: 7/21/02 1:47 am Re: Vapor Trails Remastering Info (Please Read) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Xan, The 240S are going for about 99.99 everywhere I look. I just said to hell with it and ordered them from Marsmusic. My old pair are a set of Sony MDR-V600. I really liked the sound they gave me and the fact they are collapsable...but the damn things just up and died on me. I went in for my airshift at midnight, plugged in and got nothing on the right hand side. I was not a happy man. Anyway from what I have read the 240S are basically the replacement for the old studio standard 240 or 240M as they are now being called. A guy at my station has a pair that I use when I forget my cans or when they break, and I think he has been using them since the 80s from the look of it. They really have a nice natural sound to them with a wide soundstage. The only problem is they are 600ohms, so they need a lot of juice to run, I mean I have to crank the console all the way up...which makes the next jock nearly go deaf when they plug in. The new 240S are 55ohms so they need less juice and the cord is removable...thank god since I think my problem is with the cord. Wow I really rambled their...I hope that was informative, or at the least not mind numbing. Anyway maybe I should see if their is anything I can do with Pro Tools to VT, like I said before I really don't like the complex interface, but I have a ton of plug ins for the software. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Xanadar Nuitari Rush Fan Posted: 7/21/02 2:41 am Re: Vapor Trails Remastering Info (Please Read) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- dejm1, Yes, my remarks towards Mr. Weinberg were harsh, but that was anger and frustration talking. Indeed, his list of achievements are very impressive... no doubt about that. I've since found quite a few more of my CDs that reside in his discography that I am incredibly pleased with. By "mastering his profession", I meant that it seems as though he is trying to treat today's digital audio with the same techniques used for treating yesterday's analog audio, and it simply cannot be done without introducing the artifacts that are present on "Vapor Trails". As technology changes, so do the methods for achieving the same satisfactory results. If I am completely off-base and wrong about his role in all of this, then I will humbly retract my remarks stating otherwise. However, I firmly believe that as the mastering engineer, given his role in the post-production process, he was ultimately responsible for the sound quality of the final product since he was one of the last-in-line before the CD reached the mass production phase. I'm not blindly attacking the man... I'm just upset that my favorite album in many years from any artist could have sounded better (to me) if it had received the attention that it deserved. Edited by: Xanadar Nuitari at: 7/21/02 6:15:19 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ZeroMischief New Arrival Posted: 7/21/02 9:59 am Re: Vapor Trails Remastering Info (Please Read) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Atta boy Xan! We all agree the band's performance and sound on this record is AMAZING. But we all must realize that the mastering on this CD is a TRAVESTY, especially after all the time and effort that the band spent making this collection of gems. This mastering is no fault of the band's, and everyone needs to understand that. I guess some people just don't have "the ear" to hear what a terrible job was done in between the actual recording process and the arrival of the cd in stores. For the first couple of weeks I thought that I was going crazy, and that it was just me. I thought, there's no way it's the cd, so I tested on other pieces of equipment with the same results every time. Then I finally came on these message boards (geddylee.net also) and saw that there were threads started on this topic. Needless to say I was thrilled that I still had my sanity! By the way, thank you once again Mike for all the hard work in bringing out the true "sound" of this cd. While I don't think it will ever be perfect (unless they professionally remaster the cd), it is a TREMENDOUS improvement over what is in the stores. I re-remastered last night with the instructions given on page 3 (with the exception of X-Crackle because I believe you bagged it once you went with the Clip Restoration on CEP) and I must say that I am quite pleased. All of my trials are going to run out so I guess I better be happy! Thanks again, Zero -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subdivision New Arrival Posted: 7/25/02 2:48 am Re: Vapor Trails Remastering Info (Please Read) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Xan, I thought you might like to know your remastering technique is making the rounds on the newsgroups, mainly alt.music.rush. I was just scanning the groups and came across some discussion of the remastering and your name was actually mentioned. Kinda cool! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Xanadar Nuitari Rush Fan Posted: 7/25/02 8:14 am Re: Vapor Trails Remastering Info (Please Read) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hehe, I won't let it go to my head, I promise. Actually, I saw one of those posts in particular... coutesy of our very own MitA. It appears to be met with similar skepticism and mockery, though. Oh well, at least some have honestly tried it, and are pleased with the results. Good job on getting the word out, bro. I never actually thought about newsgroups. I've only used newsgroups to download about 16 GB of arcade and console emulation ROMs recently. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subdivision New Arrival Posted: 7/25/02 12:28 pm Re: Vapor Trails Remastering Info (Please Read) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Heh...I don't really post either, I just scan them for useful stuff to download as well. As far as the skeptism goes, Vapor Trails is a an odd little gem. Until Ged, Alex, or Neil makes a statement saying "Hey you goofballs we are Rush, we made the record that way, so please stop using your fancy computers and listen to it the way we made it." Until I hear something like that I am going to listen to the remastered version. Crackle was not the only issue for me, the vocals just sounded buried in the mix, it is just plain muddy. If Rush does come forth and say that the current master is that way for a reason, then I will stop listening to my remastered copy and listen to it the way they intended, I respect them too much as artists not to. Keep up the good work Xan...although I don't really think there is any work left to be done. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- fanfrom80 New Arrival Posted: 7/25/02 1:32 pm Re: Vapor Trails Remastering Info (Please Read) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just my opinion, but I would be more than extremely surprised if Rush says thats the way it is supposed to sound. I am referring to the clipping only here. When you introduce flat-tops in the waveform, it tranlates to a steady-state current to the speakers, which will simply hold the cones in one place. When that happens there is no pressure changes applied to the air near to speaker and you'll get dead silence. Without talking about harmonics and fourier series stuff, the clicking is from the sudden deceleration/acceleration of the cone or tweeter to go from moving fast to dead stop to moving very fast again. There is nothing pleasant or artful about that. There is no way a guitar string would do the same sort of motion on its own, and the added feedback and amplification to the native guitar sound would not add flat-tops either. That would damage the speaker equipment. From what I've read, the level of understanding and training in the recording industry is dropping, not increasing. Also, the metering of sound level intensity is a mess with no clear or single standard being followed. The allowance of x (about 10) dB of headroom from the peak of the music to saturation of the recording media has disappeared as well. Now zero dB is set at the level of clipping, instead of down where it should be. The motion picture industry seem to be suffering from the same thing too, but that may not be in the recording, rather in the volume control of the person playing the film. I'll always listen to the repaired version. Xan, you are right to stand up to anyone that says you are tampering in some sort of disrespectful way with the recording. That is not the case and I can tell that you have gone to extreme measures to insure that you preserve the mix as well as possible. And I was not shocked or in disagreement with your post with the 'rant on - rant off' section. I'd like to send Mr. Weinberg an mp3 of a square wave and ask him if he could identify the artist! As for the other issues like the low end being muddy or the vocals being buried, yeh, I can hear it and feel they are valid comments. But those problems are acceptable to me, although I would jump to store to get a copy without those problems too. The clipping is a defect that is on a totally different level for me and the rest of us here I'd say. l8r dudes. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cobra611 New Arrival Posted: 7/29/02 3:11 pm Re: Vapor Trails Remastering Info (Please Read) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I noticed a problem with my VT cd the moment I played it in my car. Even though my system is a factory option, the sound quality is horrible. I have a very good system at home, and even make use of my equalizer. But, when I play VT, I have to lower all my levels, and they're not even that highly set. I was very displeased with it, the sound quality of my particular cd, not the music itself. If I ever learn anything about computers, I will attempt to correct it, and make a satisfying copy for myself. Thank you very much for letting us in on the correction process. This is my first post ever on this site. I've been reading it for quite some time, but just recently got my membership. It's a great pleasure to read all your posts on many aspects of Rush. I myself have been a fan since 1981. My first concert was Sept. 23, 1983 when Marillion (another of my favorite bands...more so with Fish) got boo'ed off the stage at Radio City Music Hall. The show at PNC in NJ almost 3 weeks ago was my 15th. Thanks again! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ziegler2112 Johnny On The Monorail Posted: 7/29/02 3:13 pm Re: Vapor Trails Remastering Info (Please Read) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Welcome aboard, Cobra! Glad to see ya finally made it! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- musicintheabstract New Arrival Posted: 7/29/02 4:17 pm Re: Vapor Trails Remastering Info (Please Read) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cobra611, that's so funny, Radio City was my first Rush concert as well. I forgot about that whole Marrillion incident!! I felt bad for them. - MitA By the way, you should attempt the VT remastering process. It's not as difficult as it appears to be. "...minimal expressionist post-modern neo-symbolist" - - - :Neil Peart question and answer session: Q- Why isn't "he" at home in the song "Anagram"? A- "I agree that "he" could be at home -- I guess he had to go out... " -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Xanadar Nuitari Rush Freak Posted: 7/29/02 5:33 pm Re: Vapor Trails Remastering Info (Please Read) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Indeed, you should try the process yourself if you ever feel confident enough to do so. Like MitA stated, it is not that difficult. About the only difficult part is piecing together the correct steps from the most current method from this rather gargantuan thread. Glad to see more Marillion fans as well. The lady DJ for 98 Rock in Charleston, SC (when I used to live there) who I sweet-talked into playing "Natural Science" in its entirety one night suggested that if I liked Rush, I would more than likely enjoy Marillion also. She was right, but I only have one of their CDs though ("Six of One, Half-Dozen of the Other"). Welcome aboard Cobra611! P.S. ~ I wanted to say, Norm, that I almost broke down in tears after reading your post. You described it beautifully. I've been wanting to say it that way for a long time. I especially loved your comment about the MP3 of the square wave. Edited by: Xanadar Nuitari at: 7/29/02 6:42:03 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- anguion New Arrival Posted: 8/6/02 10:56 pm Re: Vapor Trails Remastering Info (Please Read) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have a question concerning the results of the VT "remastering" process. First off, I was one of the few who did not find fault with the "original" mix of VT, i.e. -- I didn't/don't hear the clipping/distortion! However, I did try this process anyway to see what would happen. When you analyze regular VT using Cool Edit (Analyze/Statistics/Possibly Clipped Samples), it shows 0 possibly clipped samples. However, if you apply the "process", then re-analyze, it shows quite a few possibly clipped samples. Question: how does this make sense if the goal is to eliminate (a better term would be *mask*) the clipping? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- fanfrom80 New Arrival Posted: 8/6/02 11:26 pm Re: Vapor Trails Remastering Info (Please Read) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- most curious anguion: I'd like to discuss this further with you. If you are not getting any clipping detected by cooledit, I wonder if your cd is different. One bad section was on the "Vapor Trail" track between about 3:20 to 4:00 minutes. Zoom in and see if you can see any flat-topped peaks and valleys in there. Also "Secret Touch" is full of clipping. I will be back tomorrow with some times in that song. I'm at home now and all the tracks are at work. Gee hope my boss doesn't see this! I'm sure you'll get some other members feedback on here as well. Your question is a valid one. Also thanks very much for posting here and going to the effort get CE going etc. later, -Norm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Counterpart42 New Arrival Posted: 8/7/02 1:41 am Re: Vapor Trails Remastering Info (Please Read) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There also is clipping in Secret Touch in the area at around 0:25:717. If he has really got an unclipped version of the cd it would be most interesting to do a mix edit in Cool Edit Pro to see, wether theres also music in the difference or if they really eliminated the crackle only. till then, Mike [Hey, that was my first post!] Edited by: Counterpart42 at: 8/7/02 2:44:29 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Voice in a Hurricane New Arrival Posted: 8/7/02 2:24 am Crackling? We don't need no stinkin' crackling! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I just went out and bought a CD-RW drive and learned how to use Windows (I'm a Mac guy) and after seven hours, I have a copy of VT that is crystal clear and THUNDERS! I think my original copy blew one of my speakers when I upped the volume. Thanks guys, I am one of those who could hear the clipping and static before even knowing this message board was here. I'm glad it could be corrected to some degree. Later, Ted -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Xanadar Nuitari Rush Freak Posted: 8/7/02 7:41 am Re: Crackling? We don't need no stinkin' crackling! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- anguion, My best guess is that the 'Analyze/Statistics' function of CEP performs a rough, simple overall statistic gathering of data concerning everything about the audio, not just clipped data. It also states that they are possibly clipped samples. The statistics gathered using that feature of CEP simply looks for digital "overs" (anything that registers over 0dB). The entire CD was possibly brick-wall limited at 0dB when mastered, meaning that nothing actually goes over 0dB during playback, but almost the entire disc stays at 0dB. The 'Noise Reduction/Clip Restoration' feature does a more throrough investigation of clipping statistics ('Gather Statistics' button), and returns the information in values of percentage. I took the liberty of documenting those numbers here: =Clipping Statistics= I must also venture a guess that "if" there is a version of the CD that is not clipped (which I do not believe whatsoever), then the process would not be able to be performed on that disc, since CEP will not repair something which is not damaged. In other words, if the 'Clip Restoration' feature does not detect any clipped samples, then absolutely nothing is done to the audio when you try to apply the settings, thus making no change. I have tried this very thing with numerous other "properly mastered" CDs, and it does nothing to the audio afterwards. The end result is a mirror-image of the audio before, peak-for-peak, sample value-to-sample value, dB range-to-dB range. Mike Edited by: Xanadar Nuitari at: 8/7/02 8:54:21 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- anguion New Arrival Posted: 8/7/02 12:47 pm clipped samples -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >The 'Noise Reduction/Clip Restoration' feature does a more >throrough investigation of clipping statistics ('Gather >Statistics' button), and returns the information in values of >percentage. I took the liberty of documenting those numbers >here: This may be true, but I'm wondering how useful it is. For example, I "ripped" various tracks from a whole range of artists that I *know* don't clip or sound crackly, and this function *still* shows a small percentage of clipped samples. Over on the Digital Rush Experience group at least two members did not hear the crackle, so I'm not alone. Once again, I'm not saying it's *not* there, it's just that I don't hear it, and my hearing isn't poor. I don't know if a "clean" copy is out there and I, and a few others, have one. All I know is, when I applied the Clip Restoration, the WAV file still appeared the same (rectangular), where I was expecting it to be more varied. That was normal setting. With lightly clipped, the WAV shape did change, but there were some harsh spikes that certainly maxed-out. Surprisingly, even though I do not hear crackle on my copy, I was annoyed by the compression, small dynamic range, and bass overkill. Applying a simple Mackie Low Cut using Cool Edit's Parametric EQ not only made the cd sound better, it made it *look* better, i.e. -- bye bye rectangles... ...food for thought...!!!??? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Xanadar Nuitari Rush Freak Posted: 8/7/02 2:45 pm Re: clipped samples -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After the process is applied, you're going to see a rectangular view of the waveform for the most part, because like I said in the procedures, I am not trying to change anything about the sound (volume, tonality, stereo balancing, etc.)... I am just trying to eliminate the crackling caused by the harshly clipped peaks during mastering. In fully zoomed-out view of the waveform, you're looking at a visual representation of the overall perceived amplitude, and of course, when you listen to the CD, you can tell that it is certainly maxed out volume-wise. I will agree with you though. There have been many CDs so far that I did not belive anything was "wrong" with them until further inspection. Truth be known, if I personally cannot hear it, I don't mess with it. CDs that show clipping percentages of .005 or something similar is hardly worth going through all this trouble to try to "fix". Counterparts has an extremely slight amount of digital clipping present (according to CEP), yet I think it has been one of the finest sounding albums they have released in years. However, on Vapor Trails, I can personally hear the presence of it all over the place, and the clipping percentage values retrieved via CEP proves how much there actually is. I consider that particular feature of CEP to be extremely useful, as it looks for waveforms that have perfectly flat horizontal peaks (concrete evidence of digitally clipped audio), and reports the findings as a ratio against the entire track. If there are "flat-tops" in the audio (which there should not be with any sine wave), then it will find it. By the way, that bass cut preset was one of the first things I ever did to the CD when I started working on it. You're absolutely right... it did manage to make it sound better (to me, at least), and I certainly liked the way the waveform "looked" afterwards, but it did absolutely nothing to rid the music of the scattered crackling. I agree completely with you on the observation that the CD has practically no dynamic range to speak of, and the bass is too prominent. I've since gotten used to the overall sound, but I will never get used to the crackling. Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Voice in a Hurricane New Arrival Posted: 8/7/02 2:58 pm Re: clipped samples -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think you may be turning some of us into mad scientists. I'm thinking about the rest of my music. Something doesn't seem quite right about two albums I can think of. Presto, and Blue Oyster Cult's Imaginos. I have good ears but don't know the audio terms for what I'm hearing (or not hearing.) I've heard gripes here and there about the sound quality of Presto. However, I seem to be the only one I know who owns Imaginos, and something is going on with that album that I can't put my finger on. I think that's BOC's only good album. Maybe I should start a poll on the topic. Later, Ted -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Xanadar Nuitari Rush Freak Posted: 8/7/02 3:00 pm Re: clipped samples -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I need to add this... even though a visual representation of a rectangular waveform looks unusual compared to the wide dynamic range of audio in past years, it is not necessarily bad. Due to the severe limitations of the 16-bit 44.1kHz CD format, the closer you get to 0dB ( without going over!), the better the sound quality, as there are more bits used to represent and accurately reproduce the audio. Personal music that I create and master myself usually finds itself riding along the 0dB to -0.2dB barrier all the time, but it's all how you deal with the peaks in the audio. The Waves L2 limiter/volume maximizer "intelligently" redraws peaks that go out of bounds allowing the overall volume to be increased without inducing "overs". It's an awesome tool! Oh, ViaH... I just got through re-mastering Hold Your Fire and Presto the past two days, and they sound incredible now. I basically gave a slight bass boost (+2dB to HYF, and +4dB to Presto) around the 65Hz range (Waves Linear Lowband EQ), ran both CDs through an analog tape saturation simulator plug-in (Steinberg Magneto), and increased the overall amplitude by 5dB (Waves L2). Mike Edited by: Xanadar Nuitari at: 8/7/02 4:10:08 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Voice in a Hurricane New Arrival Posted: 8/7/02 3:10 pm Re: clipped samples -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You rule. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- anguion New Arrival Posted: 8/7/02 5:30 pm Re: clipped samples -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike, 1. Thanks for your intelligent reply(ies) and for starting this whole thing up. We all must remember: if this album wasn't so good, no one would care about improving it's sound. 2. After someone wrote in some actual times of distortion for the song Vapor Trails, I re-examined and lo, I *did* hear the disturbance. Only problem, I shouldn't have to be told where it's at in order for it to be an issue. In other words, if the 3:20 to 4:00 mark of Vapor Trails holds some of the most heinous examples, they aren't that bothersome, at least to me. 3. Just to be sure I'm doing this correctly, is this the current accepted process, sans the obligatory DC and 32 bit stuff: Clip Restoration (Restore Normal {0 dB}) and then the Waves L2 Ultramaximizer (Hi Res Cd master with Thresh and Out Ceiling changed to 0) 4. When I do this process, say on the song Vapor Trails, the percentage clipped when it's all said and done is still 1.38/.258. It's better than the first (1.409/.266), but hardly seems worth it. Is this the figure other people got for this song? Could anyone post what the "new" figures are for clipping % after remastering to compare to the earlier one posted with the original percentages? Thank you all so much! anguion |
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